Pekka warns Maria in the comments of her blog not to read my views of history because they are “wrong”. It is true they are not what Pekka’s high school teacher told him about our wars with Russia. And what Pekka’s high school teachers had been told to tell him about our wars. Touching that Pekka should worry about Maria not being able to judge for herself. Of course she is a foreigner and a woman, how could she be trusted to think for herself. 
Finns get really upset if anybody hints at the possibly that we allied with Germans, and by allying with them, helped them. We did. That is the whole point of allegiances.
We did worse things than that. e.g.
And maybe it’s time to own up to the fact that our past is not as spotlessly clean and innocent and heroic as we would like to believe it to be.
Wars are ways of creating divisions between Us and Them, ways of Othering. Racism is Othering too. Nationalism can’t really exist without an Other to define it.
It’s funny nobody ever tells me to go back where I came from and stop expecting the Irish state to provide for me, nobody seems to ever even think it.
I guess I am white, well educated, not of an offending religion, but I could so easily be an Other, too. If Stalin had given his army some proper skis in the winter of 1939, and had sent all of us Finns back to where we came from, I would now not be part of the Us, but of the Others. I would have to register, get work permits and re-entry visas every time I went off to see my mother; technically also every time I went up to Belfast to visit old friends.
And they spot check busses and trains to and from Belfast these days. It’s the freakiest thing; the bus stops, people in uniforms come on, looking for ID’s and take some of the non-Irish looking people off and the bus goes on without them.
That could be me. But it isn’t.
I am not an Other, thus not a Terrorist; not this war, anyway.
It’s me again.
I’d like to point out that, what i say in Maria’s blog is that your views of history are unusual and at least in my opinion extremely wrong.
Maybe “extremely wrong” is a bit strong way to put it. But at least your views in fact are highly controversial and to my opinion illfounded.
My highschool history teacher didn’ tell me anything about finno-russian relationship, because i only took two courses that both emphasised critical approach to historybooks and documents rather than memorizing historical dates and names.
suggesting that i have xenophobic and misogynist views is a low blow even with the smiley face.
“Finns get really upset if anybody hints at the possibly that we allied with Germans,” not saying anything about the true nature of the relationship that finland and germany had during the continuation war, i must point out that previously mentioned sentiment was popular during the war. Finland persistently insisted that it was not allied but having a separate war. And this seems to have some validity as USA
refused to declare war on Finland and Soviet Union agreed to a separate peace with Finland. Of course the aid we got from germany was essential and there were a huge amount of german soldiers on finnish soil in lapland. And we had a common enemy with the germans. But i thinkt the fact that finland had close ties with germany is in fact well known in finland.
I think UK should be similarly ashamed of their alliance with the Soviet Union. They helped Soviet Union to occupy Baltic States. Only difference is that they we’re on the winning side.
and what you said about finland helping germans in the winter war is absurd. Germany wasn’t at war with the Soviet Union at the time. Were UK and France also eager to help Germany, when they considered sending troops to help Finland in Winter War.
“It’s funny nobody ever tells me to go back where I came from”
Who has said to whom that he/she should go back where he/she came from?
Comment by Pekka Eskimo — December 7, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
i have some problems commenting on your text. i’m sorry if my comment came twice. i tried twice because the comment didn’t appear on the first time. well if comments don’t get through so doesn’t this message.
Comment by Pekka Eskimo — December 7, 2006 @ 2:06 pm
People have the strangest ways of judging who is ‘too foreign’ and who is ok. I wonder if there’s a formula to it? Like Maria says, Spanish aren’t racist towards Finnish people, but on a larger scale racism is a big problem there too. Football and everything.
I was once walking up Grafton St. with the squeeze-at-the-time, and we were suddenly surrounded by a big group of Spanish tourists. “Focking foreigners, go back where you came from!” hissed my otherwise charming companion through his teeth. I felt like I should’ve turned around and walked away - after all, I was a foreigner too.
Comment by lauranen — December 7, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
Yes! Count me in. I’m all for alleg… alliga… alliances; well if I could spell it I would be for it, not against it
Eläköön hyvät liitot.
Liitokset, eikun kiitokset tästä postauksesta:) En tiedä mitään historiasta, paitsi sen että jokainen historiankirjoittaja kirjoittaa sen omalla tavallaan.
Comment by Rita — December 7, 2006 @ 3:39 pm
I am not sure what is going on with my comments, these all got stuck here.
Pekka, Finland stopping the Russians in the Winter War helped the Nazis because it stopped the Russian advance, Finland under Soviet rule would have been a serious threat to Nazi Germany. And the Winter War encouraged operation Barbarossa. Etc. I am going to stop lecturing you on history, because as you know, all this stuff is widely available. My comment was intended to annoy the Winter War glorifiers who think it was a wonderful beautiful patriotic thing to have achieved, I am sure it was, for Finland, but putting into the context of the European history the Finnish wars helped the Nazis. And me, I just don’t think that is a great wonderful thing. The way people go on about the Winter War in Finland annoys me, it is no surprise lots of people don’t even seem to always realize that we actually didn’t win. See for instance: http://survival.blogs.fi/2006/12/06/itsenaisyyspaiva~1409212) (sorry, non-Finns, just can’t seem to avoid Finnish links on this topic!)
As to your final question surely the anonymous comments to Maria’s blog should be enough of an answer. As is Lauranen’s comment above. (thanks Lauranen!) You yourself question the right of some people to live in Finland, but you don’t question my right to be here.
Rita, not this one! I was talking about the Alliance of Finland with the Nazis during Second World War!
Comment by Administrator — December 7, 2006 @ 4:34 pm
Pekka said ‘I think UK should be similarly ashamed of their alliance with the Soviet Union.’
Well, at least you’re admitting that Finland should be ashamed of allying with Nazi Germany, giving German troops free passage to attack Russia, contributing to the siege of Leningrad where hundreds of thousands of civilians died, sending Jews to concentration camps etc. Some progress anyway!
Comment by David L — December 7, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
If Finland under soviet rule would have been serious threat to Nazi-Germany, why did they okay it with the molotov-ribbentrob pact?
if soviet union occupating Finland was a such a great thing for europe and democracy why UK and France and the League of nations oppose it.
“You yourself question the right of some people to live in Finland, but you don’t question my righ to be here” Ireland also questions the right of some people to live in Ireland. They do deport people.
Comment by Pekka Eskimo — December 7, 2006 @ 5:37 pm
David L: as i mentioned earlier Finland insisted on having a separate war and not an alliance with Nazi Germany.
UK was in alliance with Soviet Union, but no one seems to be ashamed of their alliance and their part in helping Soviet Union achieve it’s goals.
Finland refused to take part in the Siege of Leningrad despite German pressure to do so.
and about those concentration camps:
“Finland later also earned respect in the West for the strength of its democracy and its refusal to allow extension of Nazi anti-Semitic practices in Finland. Finnish Jews served in the Finnish army, and Jews were not only tolerated in Finland but most Jewish refugees were granted asylum (8 of the more than 500 refugees were handed over to the Nazis)[8]. The field synagogue in Eastern Karelia was probably unique on the Axis side during the war. In the few cases in which Jewish officers from Finland’s defence forces were awarded the German Iron Cross, they declined[9].” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Jews_in_Finland
i don’t think that finland had any other choice than seek help from Germany. Everyone else had declined. The most shameful things Finland did during continuation war was to advance beyond the old borders.
Comment by Pekka Eskimo — December 7, 2006 @ 10:34 pm
Last points to Pekka
1. Finland was allied with Nazi Germany. Admit it. There was an alliance. Pretending there wasn’t is akin to Austrians pretending that they were ‘the first victims of the Nazis’ rather than willing collaberators. When the Nazis were losing the war, Finland was forced to break the alliance - how could it do this if there wasn’t an alliance?
2. Finland’s actions did contribute to the siege of Leningrad. Again, this is something you know.
3. Finland sent Jews to the concentration camps. Not only refugees but captured Russian Jews.
The point here isn’t that Finland was uniquely evil - it wasn’t - but that Finns, like Irish people should face up to their state’s murky past. Otherwise -like the Austrians voting in Haider - there’s the chances that the same mistakes will be repeated
Comment by David L — December 8, 2006 @ 12:17 pm
“2. Finland’s actions did contribute to the siege of Leningrad.” Finland advanced to the old-border (pre winter-war border) and didn’t want to advance , because leningrad wasn’t their goal. so finland and germany clearly had different goals, but common enemy.
help from germany was needed to prevent famine and to stay independent: i think they both are worthy causes. especially when you’re fighting against an imperialist totalitarion country like Soviet Union.
I guess every country should be ashamed for many things they did during the war, but claiming, like Kirsti, that there isn’t anything to celebrate on independence day because preventing soviet occupation somehow helped Nazis, is absurd.
Finland traded POW:s with Nazi Germany that really isn’t sending someone to concentration camp. those of the POW (so enemy soldiers) who were jews ended up in concentration camps in Germany. But most of the Russian POW’s were sent to concentration camps in Russia after the war, because stalin thought that they had been contaminated by foreign ideals.
and why i’m so eager to comment on your posts is the fact that you give completely wrong image of the things hinting about sending jews to concentration camps and contributing to Siege of Leningrad when Finland had very little to do with those things.
Comment by Pekka Eskimo — December 8, 2006 @ 1:05 pm
Pekka, you are going round in circles. I only just now read your blog, you write well. You don’t say what it was you started to study, but perhaps you should move over to history. I warmly recommend history, studying it is good for you. I hope you get better soon, and get back to your studies!
Comment by kirsti — December 8, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
Winter War did help Nazis - but it also helpet Soviet union. It showed to Stalin and other officers of SSSR how bad the situation was in their army and gave them time and motivation to prepare for nazi invasion. Without Winter war, Germany might have advanced all the way to Moscow and Soviet may have even partly collapse.
So, we helped both Nazis and commies. Buhuu.
And I don’t see helping Germany at that time would have been any better than helping Soviet union. Unless ofcourse one think that Stalin was a real “father sunshine” and communist rule nice and happy thing for Soviet citizens. In reality, Stalin managed to kill around 20 million people - and they were his OWN people, not foreign enemies. I would personally account him worse than Hitler.
Note: I’m half ukranian. My grand parents suffered Stalins rule.
And one more thing: if you can really find in Finland more than 10 persons who will be shocked to hear that Finland was an ally of Germany, Hell will probably breeze. I cannot understand where there people emerge: every year some smarty thinks he has discovered some ugly truth about Finland’s relationship with Nazis and boasts with his/hers own courage that HE/HER has a courage to say this horrible truth aloud.
C’moon, this was already taught to us in school. If you had a bad history teacher, that’s not our fault.
Comment by Arawn — December 9, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
David L: “The point here isn’t that Finland was uniquely evil - it wasn’t - but that Finns, like Irish people should face up to their state’s murky past.”
I just don’t understand HOW we should do it to make you happy? Should we attatch to the wall of our parliament a big placate with text: “Yes, Finland was ally of Germany during the World War II, yes we handed 8 jews to Germany, Yes we allowed Germans to attack on Soviet Union from our soil, we’re sorry, SORRY, forgive us, pleaaaaaaaase!”
Would this satisfy you? I personally don’t understand these “you must admit this and that about alliance with Germany”-claims. As far as I know, these are elementary thisng that are nowadays taught to us and I do not know a one person who would not know these things.
Yet, I’m glad that we fought Winter War. I’m glad that we didn’t fell to Soviet union as a whole. Yes, we lost both our wars, but we held our independency. Having give up, we would be celebrating 15th and not 61th anniversary of our independency. I’m glad that we didn’t end up part of Soviet union, because horrors that followed WW II there are almost undescribable. And would had had our share of them.
Comment by Arawn — December 9, 2006 @ 7:05 pm
Arawn, I am somewhat confused with your posts - I don’t think this is due to your standard of English but your conflation of ‘Finland’ ‘us’ and ‘people who live in Finland’.
In an era where reactionary xenophobia is increasing, any historical awareness that, as Benjamin says - ‘brushes history against the grain’, and that questions simplistic nationalist narratives is welcome (whether in Ireland or Finland). Such self-congratulatory narratives are unfortunately more prevalent than you seem to be aware of. In fact the annoyance with which you greet my idea that people should be aware of the multi-faceted, often troubling aspect of their history does seem to indicate that you yourself are troubled by the demand that such complacency be challenged. Ask yourself why.
Comment by David L — December 11, 2006 @ 12:05 pm
I don’t think you understood what I was trying to say. I have absolutely nothing against people knowing their own history - ALL aspects of their history. What troubles me is this attitude that Finns “get upset” if someone hints that we were allied with nazis during the WW II. I personally do not any Finn who would not already know this fact and who would be even a bit annoyed about it - only reason why they might be annoyed is that some people constantly keep telling this to them thinking that it’s some horrid secret that Finns cannot admit.
We know. What more should we do?
Comment by Arawn — December 11, 2006 @ 1:19 pm
Arawn, I’m jealous, we must know different Finnish people. Wish I hung around with all those tolerant historically-literate Finns that you seem to.
Comment by David L — December 11, 2006 @ 1:41 pm
Seemingly we do. I yesterday asked few my friends about this and they told me that on history lessons it wasn’t just taught that Finland was an ally of Germany - it was thaught that this is still controversial issue in Finland, some argue it was, some argue it wasn’t and students should not just absorbe historical facts but use their heads.
I like my Finns.
Comment by Arawn — December 11, 2006 @ 2:42 pm